Ep 102 - Defending Marriage and Why The Church Has Failed Us with John Clark

James welcomes John Clark to discuss his latest book on the decline of marriage in the Catholic Church brought to you by TAN books titled "Betrayed Without A Kiss: Defending Marriage After Years of Failed Leadership in the Church."  Clark emphasizes the role of laypeople in educating and promoting the importance of marriage, both before and after the wedding ceremony. He emphasizes the need for support and encouragement from fellow parents and the power of prayer. He highlights the importance of living a sacramental life and the beauty of receiving the sacraments together as a couple. Lastly, he encourages listeners to share the beauty of marriage with priests and reminds them of the importance of strong marriages in the Church.

Takeaways

• The Catholic Church has seen a significant increase in annulments and a decrease in Catholic marriages, indicating a crisis in the institution of marriage.
• There is a correlation between the use of contraception and the high divorce rate, as contraception undermines the procreative and unitive aspects of marriage.
• The decline of marriage is influenced by diabolical forces that seek to break up marriages and undermine the sanctity of the institution.
• Lay people have a crucial role in defending and upholding the sanctity of marriage by challenging the Church hierarchy and promoting the importance of marriage education and preparation. Rely on God's strength and have Him at the center of your life.
• Live a sacramental life and receive the sacraments together as a couple.

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Transcript

The Manly Catholic (00:48.372)
Hello all, welcome to another episode of The Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and tonight we have a very special guest with us. We have John Clark, author of a new book that came out from TAN Books. It's called Betrayed Without a Kiss, Defending Marriage After Years of Failed Leadership in the Church. John, welcome to The Manly Catholic podcast.

John Clark (01:08.718)
Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

The Manly Catholic (01:10.596)
Yeah, it's wonderful to have you here as well. Before we get going, we dive into the questions, questions about the book. We will start with the St. Michael prayer. So start in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou a prince of the heavenly host by the power of God, cast in hell Satan and all evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of the world.

John Clark (01:26.87)
next to the mouth, the stairs, the devil. You gotta pick them up.

John Clark (01:36.838)
evil spirits, and the one who seeks her of souls. Amen.

The Manly Catholic (01:39.18)
souls. Amen. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, John, one question I always like to ask our guests who come on just to give our audience a bit of a background of you and a little bit of more information about you is if you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why?

John Clark (01:58.19)
Marriage and I think because marriage finds itself under attack and I think that. I think it was Cheshire 10 that pointed out that. God raises people. At a certain time to defend certain things or challenge certain things right so. Yeah, I think marriage is under attack I think it's pretty clear that that's happening now and so I do feel honored even though there are times where. As I do the as I did the research in this book.

lot of a lot of laughing probably more crying though... because it's a very tough time for matrimony. But. I do feel honored that for whatever reason God has chosen... me to try to defend matrimony and I really feel called to this so. That be it and then in reference just my own marriage and I... think that. I've seen the holiness that can happen in a good Catholic... marriage so that would that would be quite a goal to be... not only.

The Manly Catholic (02:54.74)
Yeah.

John Clark (02:56.274)
canonize But to be the Patriot Saint of marriage would be Well, you know God wants us to hope big right? So there you go. That would be that in my hope

The Manly Catholic (03:05.212)
percent. Absolutely. Well, God made us for greatness, right? So that that's quite a lofty goal. And I love that. But I mean, I think this kind of ties into the first question I always like to ask authors. So what kind of brought about this project? What made you want to dive into this? Because I mean, I told you off the air before we got started, this is clearly thoroughly researched and I learned a ton of things. I'm only about halfway through I've learned so much and I'm taking so many notes. So what kind of brought about this project?

John Clark (03:10.327)
Yes.

John Clark (03:34.542)
About 5 years ago or so maybe 4 or 5 years ago a friend of mine... he was having trouble with his marriage looked like a divorce... was on the horizon for him. And he came to me not only we've been friends for a couple... decades but he recognizes me as a Catholic apologist... somebody who writes for the National Catholic... Register and the Seed Magazine and somebody... is trying to explain the faith. He came to me and he said what John what's going on what's... happening it doesn't seem like I'm getting much support from...

to try to defend my own marriage. And so I gave him some, you know, some initial advice, but his question I found very intriguing because he would tell me things and I would think, well, that can't be true and he would tell me something else and I think that can't be true and so it got me researching to try to figure out why isn't the church defending matrimony? What's going on? I'll just give you a quick example and Michelle will come back to it, but

He mentioned to me that in the Diocese that he lived in. The Diocese mandated that he obtain civil divorce paperwork. Prior to an annulment hearing to prior to a match or a marriage... tribunal hearing I shouldn't say an annulment hearing but... I'll probably talk a little bit about why that's sort of a... Freudian slip right. And I thought that can't be true how could it be. I mean the book of Malachi tells us God hates divorce.

How could it be that the diocese that you are in mandates divorce... even prior to a tribunal hearing? Of course I found out that he was 100% correct. And beyond that, every diocese in America requires a divorce... prior to a hearing at a marriage tribunal to determine validity. To me, that is shocking.

So that's what kind of started this and I started researching more and more. What's going on? Are priests learning about matrimony? Are bishops learning about matrimony? And what I really discovered was, is that matrimony is not particularly being treated as a sacrament. So that is what started the process. And from there, so essentially this book is the result of my findings and sort of

John Clark (06:03.61)
out there to say look. I am a faithful Catholic I would like some answers in terms of. What are we doing what are we what's going on.

The Manly Catholic (06:13.972)
That's shocking. I actually did not know that either. You said every diocese in the United States has that in place. Wow.

John Clark (06:21.366)
That's correct and it's interesting what I mentioned... that because people say well what about the Diocese of... you know fill in the blank Diocese of because that's a... really conservative Diocese right. It's all of them to the best of my knowledge now if one of... your listeners wants to say oh when the Diocese of I don't... know Cincinnati Ohio for instance. We don't have that let me know. But every time I've looked at one and I've sort of gone... about this from well this Bishop of this Diocese is... famously.

Like super orthodoxy is great. No, they have it too. And it's shocking because frankly, I'm trying to say this in a nice way. You would sort of expect that from the Diocese of Los Angeles, maybe you'd expect that maybe in some really liberal dioceses, but when you find that in the dioceses of, and I don't want to bring one out in particular because it's every diocese. Yeah, it's a...

The Manly Catholic (06:52.128)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (07:13.766)
Yeah.

John Clark (07:17.098)
I don't know a word to use I've sort of run out I've done I've... you know wrote a book about this time interviews I don't know... a word to use what I would say is because troubling doesn't... hack it exactly right so. Because you get into the problem of well. If you if you are looking at that. If you are demanding a civil divorce decree which by the... way the government is not able to give in justice.

Because the government doesn't have the authority to nullify, absolve or divorce even a natural marriage. Forget a sacramental one. The government doesn't have the authority to do it. So it's troubling on a natural law level to say nothing of, you know, canon law, which would be another problem for it. So that's what kind of started the process.

The Manly Catholic (07:43.84)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (08:06.824)
Yeah, I know to John even I think it was in your intro, you say, you know, because you talk about the it seems like it's not being treated as a sacrament, you know, and I know I kind of want to talk about that too, about the with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation and stuff to or the Protestant Revolution, as you correctly pointed out, but you say, because I have noticed this too, I'm a Catholic convert for about from about five years ago, is there's always been this push for an increase in vocation to the priesthood.

which I mean, clearly we need, I mean, because those are down. But you say a more startling and significant finding is the decrease in matrimony, the decrease in the amount of Catholic marriages. And that is the bigger problem. So for me, that was the most shocking thing. Cause I actually, I didn't know any of those numbers and you cited all that too. Would that be your most surprising thing you found in your research? Or was it what you just mentioned about every diocese requires a civil

divorce first before having a tribunal hearing. I guess what would be the most shocking thing for you that you've discovered? I'm sure there's many, start the list. Ha ha ha.

John Clark (09:14.43)
OK so. OK so right so the shocking and you know it's funny... I should preface this with I was a stockbroker for about 17... years and so. I had. I was the guy with three monitors on my desk I had two... monitors on and I had CNBC so I had three screens and I like I... guess that was just my life I'm constantly watching... trends and looking at things right so. So I'm used to thinking and graphs and charts.

For better for worse I know that's kind of weird but that's just you know when you do that you're looking at every tick and what's going on and. Sometimes it's very helpful but sometimes it's like I'd rather not think of math right now. But you ask an interesting question I would say. That the most disturbing number that I that I found in the course of this book. Was that in the late nineteen sixties.

There were 300 I believe 1969 there were 336... annulments that is every Diocese combined in America. 336 annulments. You fast forward about 20 years there were 72,000... annulments in a year. So that is 144,000 people had their marriages declared no or... found no.

Now when you look at numbers like that. And it doesn't really matter what field. Right 336 to 72,000 something happened. And what happened well we can go into a little I'm sure we... know in a little bit of detail as to why that happened but... in terms of the number itself. 336 to 72,000. The number you mentioned and I would argue is sort of a... corollary to that. Is that in that same time frame late 60s you're talking about.

over 400,000 Catholic weddings a year in America. To in the year 2020, there were less than 100,000 weddings. And the last 20 years alone, we've dropped 50%. So we've dropped from 400,000 plus to 100,000, but in one generation, we have 50% fewer weddings. And you know, it's interesting because as I've done interviews and talked about this and written,

The Manly Catholic (11:13.792)
Jesus.

John Clark (11:35.834)
I argued that there was a moment culture and people of some people... have taken exception to that. They say well that's a terrible way to put it. Really. You went from 336 to 72,000 what do you want to call it what... number I always wonder. When someone is troubled by me saying a moment culture what... number do you want. Do you want to have. 250,000 and all months a year before it's an all-ment culture... and is a corollary to that only 50,000 weddings.

Because if you follow the numbers. We may see. Within the next 10 years. More annulments than weddings. So when we talk about a crisis of matrimony, I don't know what... someone would have to see. To say yeah now it's now it's a worry I think we should be... plenty worried right now.

The Manly Catholic (12:29.136)
Yeah, 100% John and I do want to dive a little bit deeper into that too, because I think a mistake that is often made, at least from what I hear on like other Catholic podcasts and stuff, it's, we quickly blame the culture, right? It's like, well, there was the sexual revolution, there was, you know, no fault divorce, there was all this promiscuity going on things like that, which of course all happen. And in your book, you point that out too, like we're not denying that. But I think

John Clark (12:54.742)
Yes.

The Manly Catholic (12:59.312)
What often happens is it's almost like the sin of Adam to is like, well, Eve made me do it. It's like, well, the culture did it and then and then it kind of infected the church. But no, the church also did things within to hurt matrimony. So I want you to talk a little bit about that too, because, you know, obviously, we recognize everything that happened outside of the church. What kind of happened as you mentioned to with the annulment process within the church that decreased the sanctity.

sanctity of marriage.

John Clark (13:30.626)
So what sort of started the process is if you go back to... and I have an entire chapter on Henry VIII because that's... effectively what sort of started the ball rolling for... annulments right because if you go back to the 1400s. It's unlikely that anybody why was I should say like this. It's unlikely that most Catholics knew that you could... even have an annulment. Maybe a few did but no one really used it.

When I say no, and I'm not saying it never happened, you've had... marriages declared null throughout you know, you know, ecclesiastical history, but it was so incredibly... rare that I mean people weren't they weren't doing a... word during now or speaking about annulments who was... talking about it. So the Protestant Revolution in large measure was founded... upon an annulment. So history remembers that Henry VIII wanted a divorce from... Catherine of Aragon. But initially,

He wanted an annulment he wasn't seeking a divorce. He was seeking a church declaration. That his marriage was never valid it was never real marriage. So only after the appeals to Rome didn't work he could have... sort of set up a kangaroo court in England that didn't you... know that didn't work. And he then said well I want to divorce set up a new church... and then. Seriously.

his new church granted him an annulment which is because that's what he wanted in the first place.

The Manly Catholic (15:01.656)
Hey John, I am so sorry. Can we pause for a brief second? I have a screaming, screaming baby. I'll be right back, I'm so sorry.

John Clark (15:04.854)
Oh sure.

Please, go ahead. I got you. You're good.

The Manly Catholic (20:50.887)
Sorry about that, John.

John Clark (20:52.382)
Hey listen my friend you just jumped in line is my favorite podcaster because anybody with a set of twins that is Do with this juggling? You win dude, seriously like that's awesome. And I've been there but with nine kids you may be I mean

The Manly Catholic (21:06.046)
Oh, you know, it's funny, because my wife is like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I forgot you had an interview because I put on our calendar and I go, you know what, honey? I go, what's awesome about interviewing Catholic men is that they've all had multiple kids like we do. So like they told their Oh, yeah, don't worry about it. You have the monitor. Go get them if you need to. So it's awesome. I love it. So yeah, so

John Clark (21:21.526)
100%. Yeah. Exactly.

My thing is bring your kids on the show. I'm all good with that too, whatever's good.

The Manly Catholic (21:31.88)
Yeah, you know what, if I have to, I actually did an interview and I had to wear a child. He's like, I love this. This is like the best interview I've ever done. So I'm all for it. Absolutely.

John Clark (21:41.314)
That's what it's all about. Let's not forget that the primary purpose of matrimony and that's why we're talking is the procreation education of children. So, hey, good job. Okay. That's right.

The Manly Catholic (21:49.408)
Exactly. 100%. Well, thank you. Here we are. We're two men right back at it. Alright, so we were okay, so you're we're talking about annulments. Oh, Henry the eighth. And yep, that's where we're going in. Okay. Sorry, if I know you probably lost your train of thought, but if you want to circle back, I can edit it.

John Clark (22:05.514)
Right. No, you're good. No, I think we're good. So, so effectively, Henry VIII, set up a church, in effect, to, to further his annulment, which is, which is basically what happened. There's a lot of detail involved. It's in the book, but essentially, that's what happened. And so, annulment then became on people's lips. And so you fast forward 200 years, and there were more and more annulments.

So much so that there were some things put in place by the... Pope. Which you know sort of slow down the enormous process again... there's a bit of detail in there. And the defender the office defender of the bond was... created which was pretty amazing which was there was... someone whose office was in every diocese of the world. Every diocese had to have the office of defender of the bond... so if a marriage was challenged.

It was someone whose job it was. To defend them to offer a legal defense of the bond of... metromax of the bond of marriage right. Okay so then in modern times let's go to the late 1960s... actually let's stop real quick and go to. 1920 1930 so. The Anglican Church was against contraception for quite a long... time. And even as late as 1920.

The got together at the Lambeth Conference and reaffirmed that... Christianity. And contraception were incompatible. So they held strong in 1930. They sort of turned crazy Ivan and reverse their policy entirely. So what happened in 1930 after the Anglicans did that. It seemed as though people were expecting.

The Manly Catholic (23:47.527)
you

John Clark (23:59.69)
the all of Christianity to say no we want artificial... contraception it's fine we have no issue with that. And the reason they thought that was because sort of one by one... the Protestant sects said they kind of fell in line with the... Anglicans. But if everybody was thinking that the Catholic Church... was going to fall in line they were wrong because in 1930... Castille Canubias released. And it's a goal which basically just reaffirmed.

It was referred to later on as the summa of Christian... marriage. Reaffirming that artificial contraception was gravely evil. OK so the church was very strong on this issue. The next stop in our journey of trying to look at what happened... here is in late 1960s, Humanae Vitae is released. Within almost literally

As the ink was drying on Humanae Vitae, there was a father... Charles Curran who taught at Catholic University of... America held a press conference and said no he... you know the church didn't have the power to even say this. Catholics could feel perfectly great about using artificial... contraception and a lot of priests fell in line. That essentially began the horrors we're experiencing now. Because once you...

So as I mentioned time and time again in the book.

The primary purpose of marriage is the procreation and... education of children. And once you say the primary purpose is no longer... procreation or for that matter education right. So children educate. You object to the entire purpose of marriage. And that effectively change the game in terms of how... everything was reviewed everything.

John Clark (25:56.63)
was viewed to the lens of contraception and then of... descent right so the idea was well why should the church be... in charge of this were adults we should be able to decide what... we do that essentially what is what started the modern chaos... that we that we have today.

The Manly Catholic (26:13.32)
Yeah, it's gosh, it's just crazy, like going through the timeline. And it's, it's not like one huge domino, it's just a little bit of chipping away, like you said, too. And, you know, it's so easy to look at, you know, what has happened, especially within the church, and not see the diabolical influence going on as well. And you can easily see why, too, because, you know, if you attack the marriage, I mean, marriage is the foundation of society. So if you if you can destroy the family,

John Clark (26:41.206)
Yes.

The Manly Catholic (26:43.496)
then shoot, I mean society is just gonna crumble in on itself after that. So in, oh go ahead, sorry.

John Clark (26:51.07)
No, I was going to say that this is why you make an... excellent point and this is why I started off and I thought... if we're going to try to figure out what marriage should be... let's go all the way back to the Garden of Eden. What does God intend marriage to be? And interestingly enough when you say there's something... demonic going on I think that's pretty clear. So you go back to the garden what is the devil's first temptation?

What's he trying to accomplish? He's trying to break up a marriage. That's his first temptation. In a sense, the devil hasn't really changed much. He's still making the same temptation now as he did in the Garden of Eden. Well, nothing, what's he changed? Not much. It's so very similar. And what he's trying to do, he realizes that marriage is a triangular relationship of sorts.

It's not only it wasn't only Adam and Eve. Was Adam and Eve and God was a sort of a triangular... relationship there. And the devil. In the garden the serpent is not trying to have Adam and Eve... divorce each other after all he was tempting them to act. Similarly right to commit the same sin so like work together.

But it was it was not to divorce Adam and Eve it was it was to... get Adam and Eve to divorce God. To throw God out of the marriage.

So fast forward to now what do we have same thing. So you have people that are you know if you have people talk... about contraception. Well they're not they're not saying hey you should divorce... of course that's what will happen I mean if you saw... try to see that there's a there's a very easy line to... draw between you know couples you married couples using... contraception and divorce and it's pretty clear.

John Clark (28:52.31)
But the devil you know again it is demonic and it's... interesting because this year it's interesting in 2023... there has been a really almost a hyper focus and I think some... of it is not good but there has been a hyper focus on... demonic activity there's been a lot of movies come out... about exorcism demons things like that right. I find a couple of things strange but one of the things... I find strange about that is that. The devil's trying to wreck marriage why aren't we talking... about that.

Why isn't that the focus of what the devil is trying to do because it's so clear. The devil is always trying to break up marriage. He hates marriage. Why does he hate it? Because God loves marriage. And it's easy to determine that. So we know that, you know, we know that he loves marriage by looking at the book of Genesis. We know he loves marriage by looking at the book of Tobit.

The Manly Catholic (29:32.256)
Thanks for watching!

John Clark (29:42.742)
We know that he loves marriage by looking at the Gospel of... John because his public ministry began at a wedding which... began his road to Calvary. And when our lady says they have no wine she knows that... will begin his road to Calvary. And yet. So it's just so clear that God loves marriage so it then... becomes clear as a corollary that the devil hates it.

So we really ought to be talking about that more. I don't know why we're not. That should be a focus. And what can we do to protect marriage?

The Manly Catholic (30:18.4)
100%. Well, I mean, too, as a man, I mean, we're called either to marriage or to the priesthood. For majority of men out there, and that is our path to sanctity, our path to sainthood. So if you can, you know, I mean, you could talk about destroying the priesthood too, which the devil's obviously trying to do as well. But destroying marriage is what the majority of men are after. So if you can destroy that, it's like, hey, I'm going to damn all these men to hell if I can destroy their marriage. But you mentioned a point.

John Clark (30:29.079)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (30:48.356)
kind of subtly, but you said the corollary between married couples who use contraception in the divorce rate is pretty staggering. And I kind of would dive into that a little bit because my interpretation of that is, okay, so we obviously know the purpose of marriage is procreation. And if we break up that, because we are

We are deleting essentially what God intended for marriage to be. We then exactly what you said back in Genesis is we separate ourselves. The couple is now basically repeating what Adam and Eve did and said, you know what, God? I know this is what you intended, but we know better. So we're going to go do our own thing. And so we're going to, you know, however you want to end the possibility of conceiving children, because I know, I mean, like I mentioned earlier, I'm a converse.

have had vasectomies and things like that. And it's just like, it's no big deal. You know, in the Protestant circle, it's just like, oh yeah, we had our two kids, we had our one kid, we're good, let's just go get the surgery. And it's like, it's almost celebrated, which it's so sad because it's totally destroying what God intended. And I just kinda wanna kick that back to you, and that's just kinda what was percolating in my head, and you can kinda fill in or correct anything and draw in conclusions.

John Clark (32:18.315)
So we could look at it this way maybe. The fathers at least several of the church fathers believed that the number of people that make it to heaven there were meant to... replenish the souls lost at the fall of Lucifer. Now I don't know I want to talk about that either but the point... is that when you have children.

John Clark (32:44.578)
So it's a procreation and education. What does education mean? When the church uses the word education, it doesn't mean... reading, writing, and arithmetic. Although it, I mean that's fine, right? I'm a homeschooling dad and you know I have sent my kids to... college and this is all good, but primarily education... refers to teaching in the faith, bringing up in the... faith a school of virtue, the domestic church, right? The domestic church and the domestic school in a sense, right?

And so when we talk about replenishing heaven, we're... talking about. We're talking a pretty big deal here right. So so. We are helping fulfill. In a sense salvation right I mean we're trying to... replenish heaven why John why do you have nine kids I guess I... should really start because I want to replace replenish... heaven from the fall of Lucifer that's my plan.

Some people might find that sort of an odd answer but but... in large measure why did God make me. I mean if you think that's a strange answer why did God make me? So the problem is that we are sort of we're driving a... contraception drives not merely a wedge. Between a husband and wife. Because then it's reduced then the sexual act is reduced... simply to something sexual that is not procreative.

The Manly Catholic (33:46.83)
No.

John Clark (34:13.558)
but simply something for enjoyment. It's not only driving that wedge, it drives the wedge between the couple and God. The problem is that we've lived in a world that is deemed... contraception is sort of a normal thing. It's very normal, most people, most couples you know use it. Quite a number of the Catholic couples you know also are... probably using contraception.

That's not to judge their hearts, it's simply to say, well, this is what's going on. You simply look at the numbers. But they're driving a wedge like salvation, salvation as God intends this. And so we have lost sight of just how offensive artificial contraception is. It's gravely, the church is not against, we have to look at it this way. The church is against contraception because it's gravely immoral.

The Manly Catholic (34:44.905)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (35:10.538)
It's not gravely immoral because the church says we can't. There's a difference between the two. And so we have to realize that artificial contraception is gravely wrong. And we need to talk about that more. And in terms of defending marriage, one of the great ways to do that would be to say, artificial contraception is gravely immoral. We, I'm trying to remember, I mean, I'm 50, I'm almost, I'll be 53 later this month. And I'm trying to, I could probably count on one hand.

The Manly Catholic (35:28.125)
Hmm.

John Clark (35:37.25)
The number of times I've heard words similar to that spoken... maybe it's a handful of times I've probably heard it. Why are we talking about it we know that it's being used... artificial contraceptives are very common why isn't why is... this being taught against why isn't being preached against...

The Manly Catholic (35:55.56)
No, I totally agree. Yeah. And I guess shifting gears a little bit here, John, so we identified at least a major problem. And there's others too, that we can discuss as well. But how I guess how do we will talk about as lay people first, how do we move forward? How do we educate? How do we correct the errors of the past? How do we move forward from here?

John Clark (36:25.966)
So many years ago Bishop Fulton Sheen said that it's the lady... who will save the church. Because it is the lady who will remind the priest to be... priests and the bishops to be bishops. So I think that's the great challenge to you and I right... now it's to remind the priests and bishops what the church... teaches. Because if maybe this is just simply something we need to... point out to.

If they're not talking about it, we need them to talk about it. So the first one is to challenge the church hierarchy. And by the way, this is I think an important point I'd like to make too in this regard. We live in a world in which many people are eager to sort of call out... priests and bishops to say things against them. I'm not like that.

At all in fact even writing this book. You can talk about field leadership in the church. And calling the book betrayed without a kiss that wasn't easy... for me to do. We should never be eager. To be critiquing priests and bishops we should be willing... to do it. Because prudence and justice and charity. May demand it. But we should never be exactly eager to do it.

And I think that when we are eager it comes across badly so... we should be very respectful. Primarily to the office. The office of priest. Before we do that but it is it but it begins with the lady... needs to be. You know reminding. Prelence. Of what the church has always taught we're talking about... things so fundamental. That we go back to.

This is it goes back to the Old Testament some of the things... we're talking about this isn't new. This book. This book I've written. Is not revolutionary. In fact it has very little if someone is buying my book... thinking I'm going to get a lot of original thought here. You won't. I'm just being honest you won't what you will get is. A restatement for my for current times.

John Clark (38:53.142)
Of what the church has always taught but there's nothing this... book is this book is counter revolutionary. That's what I want. Because are the revolution right now is a revolution against. Marriage this is a counter revolution. And I hope that people view it that way but again I'm not... eager to be critiquing but I realize if we don't critique... what's going to change. What's going to change.

I mean you have dynasties out there. That are granting 100% of applications for nullity. All of them you apply for marriage, it's going to be... declared null, 100% of cases. How can we let that go without saying you know your... Excellency. Walk me through it.

The Manly Catholic (39:30.236)
Hmm.

The Manly Catholic (39:37.653)
Cheers.

John Clark (39:46.258)
I think it starts with I think are you asked about the ladies... role I think it begins with that challenging challenging... priests and bishops.

The Manly Catholic (39:55.096)
Well, yeah, I mean John you bring up an excellent point because yeah, I see so I just say so many I mean there's certain Catholic personalities where they seem to thrive off of the church scandals and the division which is really sad too because exactly what you said is You know it we are called to To correct our priests and our bishops, but we're also called to do it Like you said with charity and prudence So it was like how many of you are actually having like a meeting a sit-down meeting with your pastor that you?

if you disagree with versus like going on Twitter or Facebook or YouTube and saying, Hey, Father, Father Tony, Father Jim, you know, I you said this at mass and you're during your homily. It seems like maybe the parish is going this direction. Can you please explain your thought process? Because I thought the church taught this, you know, how many how many parishioners are actually having those conversations with our, our brothers who might be, you know, leading sheep astray, you know, and I think if more parishioners be willing to do that.

You don't know what the priest might say like, Oh, you know, I never really thought about that versus, you know, I keep getting called out on Twitter, but, you know, I keep getting all these likes and, you know, retweets and stuff like that. So it's kind of boosting me up a little bit. I mean, it's just kind of natural human nature to, you know, so but actually having that sit down if you are in a situation where that is happening, actually sitting down with your pastor one on one and having the difficult conversation, because he might not even realize it.

John Clark (41:04.286)
Hahaha

The Manly Catholic (41:21.448)
You know, he's human too. He might be in air. He's like, Oh my gosh, I, I didn't realize I said that, or I, I intended it to come out this way. So thank you for bringing that to my attention versus just, like I said, going on YouTube and, you know, screaming at the top of your lungs that this, this priest is going to hell because he said this one thing that he may not even realize he said. So, uh,

John Clark (41:42.21)
Well, it's a terrific point. It's a great point. Yeah, it's true.

The Manly Catholic (41:46.432)
Yeah. Well, I do want to bring up to, you know, we talked about marriage, obviously, when you're already married. But another kind of flip side of that is, is making sure that you and your partner and kind of know what you're getting into as well. And that's a down in chapter eight, I believe, before marriage, taking pre-kina seriously. So you mind touching base on that and, and how couples who are maybe engaged or thinking about getting engaged, what they should what necessary steps they should take in order to realize

what marriage actually is about.

John Clark (42:17.998)
So yeah, thanks. The reason that I actually wrote, this seemed pretty natural to include a chapter on this because again, it is about the lady at the end of the day. It's gonna be about, you know, it's about husbands and wives. I'm looking at it this way that my mom and dad, so where did I learn pre-Kena? Well, primarily from my mom and dad, beginning when I was an infant. So my mom and dad, I...

couldn't have pronounced the word matrimony much less understood the theology behind it when I was that age, right? But I saw two people who loved each other and seemed to care for me. That's a pretty powerful Precana class. And in the book, I say that my mom and dad had taught me a five decade class on marriage. And I think primarily Precana should be taught in beginning in the domestic church in the home. There's very little to accomplish that if it's not happening in the home.

but also clearly. Pre should be speaking about this in the pulpit and when I... talk about pre-kena. It should start with pre-dating. So and by that I mean. That. If we are to foster good marriages and prevent... annulments. What's a really good way to do that well I think a really... good way to do that would be for the priest to talk about... what to look for in a spouse. I don't ever remember hearing this.

The Manly Catholic (43:43.112)
Hmm.

John Clark (43:45.278)
Let's hear about it and I have 9 kids. I'd like my teenagers to hear about that before they start... dating. I don't I think that I think that would be a powerful... sermon now we all know that the teenagers you know might go... in one ear and out the other that's fine that may happen in... a lot of cases I'm sure it will. But the fact of the matter is that some people will be... listening. And so if you say OK try to find here is what you should be... looking for in a young man.

I think that's a great sermon because it does a couple of things. For one, not only it's sort of it's aspirational in a way because it gives them it gives girls an idea of what to look for in a young man. But beyond that it's aspirational because it helps young men know what they should be. So talk about the virtues of virtue of truth which by the way, truth is not at its heyday right now.

The Manly Catholic (44:35.624)
Hmm.

John Clark (44:44.994)
Okay, so we seem to not even think the truth is a virtue. I mean, and I see this as a political speechwriter. So yeah, it's not that it's heyday. So we sort of celebrate people who lie and that's sad. We chant names on the streets of people who were caught lying and caught cheating on their spouses and we keep chanting their names. And that's a pretty bad situation when we see our children see us doing that. That's not good.

The Manly Catholic (44:45.751)
What are you talking about, John?

John Clark (45:13.026)
But what I mean by that is it's sort of a pre pre-Kena right so. Look for a young man who's a truthful person who has a good... relationship with his mom or you know seems to be a... charitable person here is what you should be looking for and... vice versa too so we could hit young men can hear but the... point is that. We need to know what it is what makes a good a good husband. What makes a good wife?

And is it too early to know what that is I don't think so. So we should be training people in how to be good husbands and... wives I think that's very important to be doing this... beyond that and so you get you get them to actual pre-k. That's that is the you know the time let's say when they get... engaged to the time of the married. Well sadly. About a couple years ago there was a there was sort of a trial... balloon. Floated.

by one of the Dicasteries and it was well there should be a 16... month. Precain a program we could sort of use this as a way to... evangelize teach by the faith and the 16 months. Well I think that's a uniquely bad idea. Because if you have to okay a couple of things when if you... have two people in love desires Union. And. You would be asking something pretty darn heroic. For two people in love.

to be chased throughout now can they have the grace to do that... of course of course they can you're asking a lot from them. And so. It's too long. If the idea is I think I think actually for anybody listening... the priest and bishops are listening it's standard to have... waited a year now I was reading the bulletin of the day... it's a 12th they'll let the parish priest know 12 months... before your wedding it's.

The Manly Catholic (47:09.607)
Mm, wow.

John Clark (47:11.55)
It is far too long. Here's my thinking and I'm not joking. 90 day top, 90 days. Give the couple a copy of Castie Canoobie, go over with... them every week, hear a general confession from the husband and... wife. Or the, I'm sorry, the husband wife to be, right? Make it 90 days. I just simply don't know if the couple... wants to wait six months, OK.

But the church should not be creating an environment where... it's at least 12 months. That is not fair and frankly. Men and women have a natural law right to marry and so we're... sort of going against the natural law rights. So I think this is a problem so in terms of pre-kid but if the... idea again is well we've got a taste in their faith.

The Manly Catholic (47:45.8)
That's crazy. I didn't know that either, yeah.

The Manly Catholic (47:55.552)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (48:06.374)
My thinking is and I'm trying to sound sarcastic when I say... this I'm really I'm really not I'm really not wanted to... sound sarcastic but if the idea is with the got to learn... the faith of where they get married I think. Why are you just teaching them now? Why not do my idea of. What should I look for in someone to date because by the... time because if we don't have that sermon.

John Clark (48:30.358)
They're already dating people who they shouldn't be dating now. They're engaged to people They should be engaged to and now we're wondering why and by the way that 16-month period I don't see how that helps not to mention the fact sort of the elephant in the room is all of these couples are Living together anyway So so now you didn't teach him the faith and it is some measure Some of the fault has to be laid at the feet of the clergy It just it just has to be no

The Manly Catholic (48:33.284)
Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (48:46.004)
Yep.

John Clark (48:59.722)
Because what is the job the job of the church is to teach at... sanctifying and govern. If we're not teaching. We're not going to be sanctifying. And what is it that we're governing. Because people won't even go to church. So we need to be teaching virtue we need to be teaching the... sacraments in terms of sanctifying the sacraments teach... the importance of the sacraments now in fairness that is done in... many churches people talk priest you talk about. The importance of confession.

the importance of living sacramental lives but we can't... we simply can't look at marriage is a small window... okay now is there a chance to teach him the faith start... early. My younger now hopefully my younger children are seeing... what cut what it is to be a virtuous married man. To be a virtuous married woman hopefully they're saying that... at home. But we need reinforcements from that too. We need to hear the priest tell us. You know you.

You know you husband and wife that are married for you know... six months to years 30 years. Keep doing what you're doing God loves you he loves what... you're doing. We need to hear that too it's so the so the so those... sermons are not simply for the younger for the older for... everybody we all need to hear.

The Manly Catholic (50:15.664)
Yeah, I always remember I forget who said it, but it's for all you men out there who are listening, it's the best thing you could teach your sons is how basically for your example is to love your wife. And that is their example, just like you had with your friend. And then what I had with my parents as well. Same thing I had, you know, you know, education right in front of me is just how does a man and a wife interact with each other? How do they communicate? How do they effectively work through problems? Because everyone goes through struggles.

John Clark (50:27.447)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (50:45.44)
You know, the beauty about, I mean, just what you kind of mentioned earlier in the episode is, you know, it's not it's not man and woman. It's man, woman and God, because let's face it, without God, all of our marriages would fall apart. I mean, it's hard. Marriage is very hard. You know, I told you, you know, we're in the middle of twins and we actually had to pause the episode because one of my twins woke up in the middle of recording. You know, it's hard work, but it's rewarding and it's sanctifying. But it can easily get you down. And if you don't.

John Clark (51:04.859)
Hahaha

The Manly Catholic (51:14.004)
have God at your center. I mean, it's just, it's so easy. Those late nights where your thoughts are going to like the worst possible areas in your mind. And you just you have to give it all up to God because without him, we would all be out in the streets and just run rampant. So I don't want to ask

John Clark (51:31.598)
God bless you for that. Yeah, no, that's so true. Just... real quick if I may. So I am we've been married 31 years. Our youngest we have nine our youngest now was 14 and I will... say this. Treasure those moments. I've been there. But I will tell you that. So I'm trying to think for 14 so about 10 years ago or so. I'm.

The Manly Catholic (51:35.408)
Yeah, absolutely.

John Clark (51:59.614)
And you know with my kids you would imagine I'm living in the... baby aisle at the supermarket right okay I'm like diapers... and see what all these different things right diapers... wipes that the baby food that you know that you will be... the crackers blah I mean I got to the point... where I was eating you know the Gerber custard and... liking it myself okay that was that was a dessert for me... like I you know I'm not joking like that's good stuff. Okay but I mean I'm living right so I mean I'm living in the... baby aisle right so.

The Manly Catholic (52:11.322)
Oh yeah.

The Manly Catholic (52:24.116)
That's awesome.

John Clark (52:28.77)
There came a time when I didn't need anything from there anymore and I felt really sad. I thought, man, this was like I owned IL aid. Now I don't need anything from there and so it was sad. And so treasure the moments. But I think that lack of sleep you have.

The Manly Catholic (52:35.971)
Hmm.

John Clark (52:51.062)
What a badge of honor that is you know I've often thought and... you know my dad was in the military was a decorated... veteran who was in Vietnam for two tours and. I've seen his medals and it's really awesome I grew up being... you know my dad is my hero my dad was my hero he passed... week a couple years ago but my dad was my hero. But you know I sometimes think that parents should get medals. And I think we do get them it's just that we don't see the ones... we get but. You're living a heroic life and.

People need to hear that. And that's what we, you know, it's, and we need, and if the clergy is not reminding us, and then many do, in fairness to them, but we need to remind each other. You asked about what the lady can do. How about this, encourage each other. You're living a heroic life, that God is pleased with your life, my friend. We need to hear that and remind each other of that, because there are hard times.

We look at our life and I often have mentioned in the course of these interviews, I've, I always say, you know what?

I've had a crush on my wife since Reagan was in office. Like literally it hasn't stopped I still have a crush on her. It's a you know it's a real thing. I've never found myself worthy of her what's really sort of... shocking and baffling is she's never found herself worthy of... me that's a stuff of great marriages and that's grace. But you know we've had times we've had those things you've... gone through we've had illnesses in the family we've... had.

you know, my first investment firm that I worked for when bankrupt, I think it was a week before Christmas, which made, you know, I know. So we've had all these, we've had these struggles, but you know, they've made our marriage stronger. So we need to remind each other that God is pleased with your life. If you are, if you are living an authentic, uh, wife of life, a fidelity to your wife and, and you know,

The Manly Catholic (54:36.437)
Oh gosh.

The Manly Catholic (54:43.329)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (54:57.474)
being just being a good parent being a parent that is present... for you know his children. Your hero you need to hear it the world's not going to tell... you that by the way and that's why we need to remind each... other of that so sorry for that sort of long answer but I... think that this is an important part of this whole thing.

The Manly Catholic (55:03.806)
Hmm.

The Manly Catholic (55:13.161)
Well, I appreciate that, John. It's so true, too. It's so isolating at times, too. But yeah, just again, having another man who's been through it with nine kids. I mean, you've been through the grind and so you know exactly what I'm going through. But I think a lot of times, too, especially as men, you know, and I know women are a little bit more open about their struggles and things, but I think as men, we kind of think we have to wear it and we have to internalize it. And it's like, OK, we just got to suck it up.

when you gotta do, but it's okay to say like, hey man, this sucks. I'm like really struggling now. This is hard. And I love my kids to death, but man, they just sometimes it just grinded down and that's okay. That's okay to admit that. You're not perfect. I mean, we're not in heaven yet. So obviously we have a ways to go before we get to that perfection in heaven. And I do wanna say too, for those of you out there, my wife showed me this post on Instagram and it was this, is this Catholic.

woman that she followed, but she went on a silent retreat. I can't remember the monastery she went to. But it was like a really intense she's like, Okay, here are all our time times of prayer that we go I'll give you a list of prayers that you can pray if you want. You can pray silently is totally up to you. But this is when we meet. And she looked at the schedule. And she said one for someone for midnight 12am. And she goes, Oh, I didn't

I didn't know you guys got up at 12am and she goes, Oh yeah, that's our motherhood hour. She says it's our longest prayer. It's for I think it's for one hour or maybe longer. And she says we all pray for the mothers. Because we know that you guys are up in the middle of the night, feeding babies changing diapers. And so we pray for you guys are in the hour. And she's my wife's like, I almost just like burst it up in tears because it was, it's just beautiful, you know, and you know,

I think we forget often too, is obviously we have each other, but we have priests, we have nuns who are praying for us too. And let's never forget that. I think all the times like I mentioned earlier is how isolating it can feel, but we have our brothers and our sisters who are also praying for us. So never forget that either. So just a little word of encouragement for out there as well.

John Clark (57:27.21)
No that's true the Norbertines yeah I saw that post and I had... the same reaction I was like wow and because you're right... we lose sight of that too and. Yeah 100% there are there are people you know we have the... prayers of heaven too and so you know that's the key thing... is that. If you go into it thinking and this is why you know you drink... a lot of coffee right to try to stay awake is you're going to... go to work. You gotta go to work the next day and like you got like an... hour and a half sleep.

The Manly Catholic (57:49.021)
Amen. Amen, brother.

John Clark (57:55.31)
but it's like you get the coffee going and yeah no but it really. You look back. With fondness to those two because I sleep I sleep now I... sleep fine now and like I'm just I'm making up for time I... didn't but you know but I do I do miss it I just so. Keep that in mind I'm saying that just for you but if... everybody listen to that and because I would have needed... to hear that too and I would have thought are you if... somebody said to me at the time I want to say what are you nuts.

The Manly Catholic (58:22.804)
No!

John Clark (58:23.402)
You know what sleep I got last week. But you miss it and I think that. And that's a grace too is realizing that your life is good. Like it pleases God it's great that you know you're making the angels happy. This is a pretty cool thing and I remember too that you know I wrote a book a few years ago called who's got you.

And it's observations that I've had over the years of you know... there I was writing that many of those pieces during the time... I was you know the getting no sleep and. No driver my kids to baseball and then ballet and I'm still... doing some of that but. The baseball the ballet the violin lessons all that but it... was wonderful I mean it was just I do miss that and so. We need to keep we need to. I guess I guess I had the grace to realize that I was that... God was pleased with my life and it's something something... we need to hear more.

The Manly Catholic (59:15.044)
Amen, amen. Well, I did wanna ask you too, John, more of a personal question. So obviously you wrote a book about marriage. So I can only assume that you kind of reflected on your own marriage during this process too. So how has this impacted your marriage with your wife throughout this whole writing a book on marriage, which I'm sure was very enlightening for yourself and your wife probably too as well, I'm guessing.

John Clark (59:37.922)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (59:42.43)
Yeah, so it's interesting I well first of all I would say that I do have a storybook marriage and my wife would say that too. So. My wife I would say this my wife Lisa makes it very hard very I should say she makes it very easy for me to write well about marriage. OK so she's the hero in this. But I but.

I would say it was it I'm gonna tell you a quick story that I think kind of summarizes the book because whenever you write a book, it takes me I've written a number of books, it takes me about 1000 hours to write a book. And which I generally do over the course of about nine months, I've ghostwritten I've written some under my name and I've ghostwrite books also, by you know, my profession. So as I say, there was some laughing some crying in this and

Something interesting happened and I haven't really talked about this, but I'll mention it here on your show because I know this is a good opportunity to do it. So the day, so when I went to my publisher at TAN, I turned in the book proposal and we talked about the contract, you know, the finances of it, which was, you know, not the most important part. But we talked about the finances and then generally speaking, publishers give you 12 months.

to finish the book. And I said I don't need it I want you to actually write into... the contract that it's the manuscript is due October 3rd. Why is it a good question. Because October 3rd was there are 30th wedding anniversary. I said I wanted to be due that day. Because on that day I'm going to hand this manuscript to my... wife Lisa and say happy anniversary. This is this is a this is in some measure.

The Manly Catholic (01:01:22.292)
Hmm.

John Clark (01:01:34.65)
It's about marriage, but it's also about our marriage. So I talk in the book, I mentioned things that we've gone through. It's here and there. And sometimes when I talk about marriages can be like this, I'm talking about mine. In any case, so October 3rd comes and I took Lisa out to dinner.

Something very interesting happened. We drove to, I was gonna take her someplace really fancy, but instead I took her to a place we used to go when we were dating, when we lived in Northern Virginia. It was called California Pizza Kitchen. And took her to dinner and I thought, let's just sort of like think about when we were dating as opposed to going out to something more fancy.

The Manly Catholic (01:02:12.415)
Oh yeah.

John Clark (01:02:25.462)
So I'm sitting across the table with her from her. And I was looking at her and thinking, I was, I felt really nervous. I was like, wow, this woman is so beautiful. I'm, I was nervous. This look, I was like, it was like first date jitters. And the only thing that should be that too is grace.

That was God's grace. I think it was a great gift to me.

because I think that was God's reward to me for sticking with... it or writing this book. I hope that story comes across as making sense but the key... thing is that I felt sort of that weak need thing and. If you can keep that for 30 years in your marriage. It's a pretty special thing. But God does give you grace. Sacramental grace is not an event.

The Manly Catholic (01:03:07.554)
Hmm

John Clark (01:03:22.378)
It's an ongoing process. So God gives us the grace we need to fulfill marriage. We so easily forget that like yeah I fell in love.

Falling out of love is you know people talk about that... like I don't love my spouse anymore well. Look every marriage has its own difficulties that they're... frankly are unknown anybody except the couple but I will... say this. God gives us grace. The challenge is for us to accept that grace. But I think that if the men listening to this. I'll speak to the men now. Ask God to give you a.

The Manly Catholic (01:03:54.902)
Hmph.

John Clark (01:04:04.354)
to give you a crush on your wife. And I bet he answers your prayer. God, again, we can't say it enough times, God loves marriage. He loves your marriage, right? Even if the whole world tells you that's not true, we know that it is. This is, you know, we have the authority of the Bible itself, right? God loves your marriage. So we just need to, so in terms of how it's affected my marriage.

The Manly Catholic (01:04:29.07)
Yeah.

John Clark (01:04:34.61)
Like so many things it's strengthened by the grace of God. Ask God for grace and into this also live a... sacramental life and I will say this and I've always tried to. You know make this point that. You know when I. When I go to confession and come out absolved. Of my sins I feel closer to Lisa. When I go to my wife and I try to go to Daily Mass.

We live in Florida so sometimes it's hurricane but we try to go... to daily Mass together right. When we kneel down after receiving communion.

The Manly Catholic (01:05:08.622)
Hehehe

John Clark (01:05:15.798)
We feel closer to each other by virtue of that Eucharist. And why? Why is that? Why confession? Why the Eucharist? Why Matroni? Because the sacrament, the seven sacraments are linked. They're beautifully linked. They're symbiotic. And this is the way that Jesus threw it up. It was drawn up a such a way that the sacraments support each other. So if you want to have a stronger marriage, live a sacrament on life.

If you want your marriage to be stronger but you're not... interested in going to confession guess what it's not... going to work. It doesn't work that way and by the... way if you're going to admit it they just the sacraments all... work together. And we can't dilute ourselves to... thinking that's not the case so. That's something to keep in mind it's not just true for... Elise and myself it's true for everybody this is the way that... this is the way that God for lack of better.

The Manly Catholic (01:05:49.108)
Hmm

The Manly Catholic (01:06:11.42)
Yeah, gosh, John, that story was beautiful. That 30 years, the first date, that is amazing. Yeah, I actually have a you mentioned after you received communion and you kneel down next to Lisa. I have a little bit of a story on that too. So I mentioned I was a Catholic convert, but my wife and I got married before I converted. And I didn't find this out until after I entered into the church. But my wife told me

John Clark (01:06:15.671)
Ha ha.

Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (01:06:42.1)
after the, because it went to Easter Vigil and I was able to receive communion for the first time, which was incredible. But she said, the first time we were able to go up together, she said, what did she say? She said, I always felt there was something a little bit missing because I wasn't able to receive with you. But now that we're able to receive together, it was almost

John Clark (01:06:47.598)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (01:07:02.987)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (01:07:11.716)
I'm not giving her justice. She said it much more beautifully and eloquently than I just totally butchered what she said. But it was it really it really struck me because again, you don't exactly what you said all the sacraments are meant to be together. Right. And yes, we got married. It's a valid marriage, of course, 100%. But the fact that I wasn't able to receive with her, there was something about that was missing. It was almost a missing piece. And then being able to experience all the sacraments together with her.

our marriage is just, I mean, you can't help but be strengthened by like taking your wife, going to confession together to be sanctified by God's grace. I mean, how beautiful is that? I mean, God, it's almost like God knows what he's doing when he gave us these seven sacraments, right? And he knows when we do it together that it can't help but strengthen and lead you closer to heaven. So that's just a that when you were saying that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I haven't thought about that in a while. So that kind of pops in my head there.

John Clark (01:07:57.929)
Right.

The Manly Catholic (01:08:12.028)
Oh yeah, so, yeah.

John Clark (01:08:12.878)
It's funny in the I was in the Eastern Church on Byzantine... Catholic so when in the Byzantine Church infants can... receive communion in fact the sacraments of initiation are... all given on the same day. That is a confirmation of Holy Eucharist. And so it was funny because. I would take up my you know I've been a baby in my arms. Taking the infant up to receive Holy Communion. And.

I always thought. They should be carrying me up right like if this... weren't like a physical thing but we're like a spiritual... thing like no I need somebody to carry me right to communion. But you're right it's it we can't lose sight of that... and I think sometimes. Marriage is in some ways very simple it's complex in a way... but also very simple and I think the holier it is that... more simple it seems and it is because. We should have maybe make things harder.

But it's simple in the sense that it's the most it's the... most obvious basic things we should be doing. Right going to it together and I and I mentioned the book I... say look am I saying. That if a husband and wife go to mass together for 30 days... it's going to make the marriage stronger my saying that and I... say yes that's exactly what I'm saying. We shouldn't act like that's not the case but you have to.

We have to put that into it. We have to live sacramental lives. That's what it's all about. It's about holiness. It's about virtue. It's about it's about being the person that... God wants us to be. And it's about helping each other save their souls. And we can do that. We don't by the way we don't deserve marriage. We don't we have a natural law right to marriage yes okay I... don't want to get legal so to be not legalistic in that sense. We are not worthy of marriage.

The Manly Catholic (01:10:05.364)
I'm sorry.

John Clark (01:10:09.494)
We are not worthy of confession. God doesn't owe us penance, the sacraments. We're not worthy of marriage. And I think that if you go into matrimony thinking, I am not worthy of this, I am not worthy of my wife's love, I'm not, and I am not. That's a great way to enter it. As opposed to saying, darn it, I want what, this is what I deserve.

it's really a bad way to do it no one storms in a confession... and says yeah this is what I deserve or at least they... shouldn't do it right. Maybe they do but we right so so. We're not worthy of the sacraments. None of them. We can never consider ourselves worthy if you never... consider yourself worthy of marriage you probably have a... really good marriage. And I know that. I know that some marriages are going through.

The Manly Catholic (01:10:44.207)
Hopefully not.

The Manly Catholic (01:11:01.12)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (01:11:06.718)
Hard times and you know that happens too, but you don't... remember something. Good marriages go through hard times too. We walk through the valley of the shadow of death just like... everybody else. We're all there but the question is who do we turn to? Who are we listening to? Are we asking God for grace? Overwhelm me with grace. Are we asking that? That's the difference.

The Manly Catholic (01:11:34.876)
Yeah, always rely on Jesus. Like we mentioned so many times, if we don't rely on him, we're doomed for failure. But John, this has been fun. We'll have to have you back on. I've thoroughly enjoyed this, but where can our listeners find out more about you? Not only this book, Betrayed Without a Kiss, which I know is brought to you by TAN Books, but other books, information about you and any parting wisdom you'd like to give to our listeners before we let you go.

John Clark (01:11:36.94)
Emma.

John Clark (01:11:48.163)
Thank you.

John Clark (01:11:56.342)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (01:12:03.578)
OK well I've got about 130 articles on ncregister.com. I write for the National Accounting Register. I've written for the Seaton Home Studies Schools Magazine. I probably have a couple hundred there actually, so there's some things there. These articles are free of charge. I also write for the Madsus Center. So yeah, I'm pretty out there with those. In terms of parting wisdom.

The Manly Catholic (01:12:04.564)
Ha ha.

John Clark (01:12:31.895)
Um...

I would simply just keep in mind live a sacramental life. God loves you. God loves your marriage. Asking for grace. Turn to him in good times and in bad. And you know, never forget that we're not worthy of this. It's okay, there's things we, you know, there's things we've mentioned. I would say in closing that you mentioned earlier something I think is very important. And I think this is a word of wisdom that you would, that you had brought up is that

Don't assume your priest knows a lot about the sacrament of... matrimony and is just saying the wrong things. He may not. Let's not forget that the... seminaries for decades weren't all that great in America. Let's be honest. Let's be honest enough to admit that. So, my advice would be buy a copy of this book for your parish priest.

Because it might be the first time that he's really sort of... delved in not because I wrote it but because that the... there's a lot of what I you're you know you're halfway... through the book as you mentioned right. These aren't these aren't original ideas but this is a... restatement of what their church has always taught about... the beauty of marriage. If priests understand if we look at the what the 25,000... Paris priests in America. If those priests understood the beauty of marriage.

The Manly Catholic (01:13:41.204)
Hmm.

John Clark (01:14:06.518)
It's a different church. It's a different world. And basically this book is an apologetic for matrimony. When not a lot are being written sadly. So I think I would simply say give a copy to your parish... priest. Hey you can gift him a Kindle copy it's nine bucks. That's not too much. That's not too much gift them send them you know I said my... friend the other day I was I posted something on Facebook... and he said yeah.

The Manly Catholic (01:14:28.614)
Oh, not bad at all.

John Clark (01:14:36.254)
I can't afford it I said what's your email. I just sent him a copy it was nine bucks I paid the same... everybody else right so. But assume that they are acting in the best of intentions... which always assume someone is you know acting with the best... of intentions. Until proven otherwise. But the point is that you let them know that see let them see. The beauty of marriage.

The Manly Catholic (01:14:42.484)
Ha ha.

John Clark (01:15:04.558)
because they're not hearing it from the world. They may not be hearing it from a lot of the parishioners who... were going to them with you know sad tales of marriages in... trouble. As someone who's got a good strong marriage talk to... your priest even without the book. Just speak to your priest convey some of the ideas in here. And let them know that there are really good marriages out... there to a lot of the problem with priests tends to be that... by the time that a couple comes to them they're already in trouble.

The Manly Catholic (01:15:32.657)
Mm-hmm.

John Clark (01:15:33.006)
Talk to your parish priest as a you know, have your parish... priest over to bless your home. Let him see good strong marriages that might be a game... changer you might realize look that. Marriage can be really wonderful thing. It can be it's the nursery of vocations is what it is. So that might be something we can focus on as well.

The Manly Catholic (01:15:49.428)
Hmm.

The Manly Catholic (01:15:54.652)
I love that. And I'll leave links to all this in the show notes for you all as well. Purchase a copy Kindle or from TAN directly as well. And all of the articles that John has written over the years. So, John, thank you again so much for your time. We really appreciate it. Again, it's Betrayed Without a Kiss, Defending Marriage After Years of Failed Leadership in the Church, brought to you by TAN Books. John, God bless, brother. Thank you so much for your time.

John Clark (01:16:20.994)
Thank you, God bless you.

The Manly Catholic (01:16:22.98)
And for those of you, thank you so much for listening. Until next time, go out there and be a saint.